Nancy Pelosi talks to NPR about wielding power — and her role as Biden stepped aside

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Nancy Pelosi has been in the room where it happened for decades.

She was at the U.S. Capitol the morning of 9/11. She was there for the days that followed, as Congress voted to authorize the use of military force in Iraq.

And she was in the speaker’s chair on Jan. 6, 2021, as rioters broke into the Capitol.

Speaker Emerita Pelosi writes about all this in her new book, The Art of Power: My Story as America's First Woman Speaker of the House.

Pelosi sat down for a wide-ranging interview with All Things Considered host Mary Louise Kelly on July 31, speaking on everything from the 2008 housing crisis to Catholicism.

In this excerpt, Pelosi opens up about wielding power — and what she was doing in the days leading up to President Joe Biden announcing he was abandoning his race for a second term.

This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

Interview highlights

Mary Louise Kelly: You once said that you tell women, “Nobody ever gives away power. If you want to achieve that, you go for it. But when you get it, you must use it.” You said that to The Washington Post in 2020. It was your second round as speaker of the House. And I begin there because the reason you and I are sitting across from each other today is you have a new book out called The Art of Power.

Nobody starts with power, including even you. You came to Congress in your late 40s and then you decided pretty quickly that the way to do what you had come to do was you needed to get a position of leadership.

I want you to take us to the moment, 2001, you have decided to throw your hat in the ring for Democratic whip, and all the men in the room looked at each other and said, “Who said she could run?” Would you briefly tell us what happened?

Nancy Pelosi: Well, let me, if I just may, this book is not a memoir. It is just about particular things — whether that’s the Iraq War, the TARP [The Troubled Asset Relief Program], the financial crisis, China — issues that relate to places where I was in the room where it happened.

Kelly: Well, the theme seems to be how you wielded power as a woman. The first woman to wield the gavel, who held it all those years.

Pelosi: Yeah, but to put it in perspective, I had never intended to run for office. I was a volunteer in politics. I loved doing that. I loved promoting other candidates, the causes of the Democratic Party. And then people encouraged me to run. And I thought, well, I've never expressed an interest, I'm not particularly ambitious in that regard. However, they said, "You love the issues, you should go." And I did.

And then people said to me, "You should run for leadership." I said, "Well, I'm here for the issues. I love what I'm doing." But then as it got on, with their urging, I just really got tired of losing. We lost in ‘94, ‘96, ‘98. 2000 came around and I said, I think I know how to win these elections.

Kelly: I guess what I'm pushing on is, the way you recount it in the book, this was not widely welcomed by all the men who had held power. And I'm curious what gave you the confidence to say, “No, you get in line. We've been standing in line for 200 years. It's our turn.”

Pelosi: Well, it is interesting that not that long ago they were saying, “Who said she could run?” And then they were saying, “Well, why don't the women just make a list of the things they want to do and give it to us and we'll get those things done." Poor babies.

Kelly: Oh, so they were helpful if you just gave them the list they would sort it for you…

Pelosi: But I said to the people then, I don't want you voting for me because I'm a woman and I don't want you voting against me because I'm a woman. But I think that I know how to win for a reason — for the children. That was the only reason I left home the first time.

Kelly: Speaking of children, you have five. And I do want to throw you a question about your mom. Speaking of women and power — your mom, how did she shape your understanding of what a woman could do, how she could wield power in a room.

Pelosi: Well, my mother, I think if she had been another generation or two, God knows what she would have done. But she, as other women of her generation, were more confined. My father was the politician. Well, he was the elected official.

Kelly: He was a long-time mayor of Baltimore, member of Congress.

Pelosi: But she was a mom, seven kids. And I was the only girl, the youngest and the only girl. She was quite remarkable. And I was born into a family that was deeply Catholic, first and foremost. We separate church and state, but the way we were raised, we had a responsibility for goodness to other people. So that was the value system. But I had never had any intention of running for public office. None.

Kelly: True that your parents wanted you to be, not speaker of the House, but a nun?

Pelosi: My mother, not my father necessarily. He didn’t talk about that. But my mother, she wanted me to be a nun. She thought that would be just perfect.

Kelly: Did you ever think about it?

Pelosi: No. And it was, you know, it was lovely. And I love the nuns and I owe them a great deal. And they say sometimes it's never too late, but it probably is by now [laughs]. That was just a manifestation of her faith and her protection.

Kelly: Before we move on from talking power, and how to wield the power that you have, I do need to ask about recent events that are outside the scope of this book, including the moment last month when you went on MSNBC's Morning Joe and said this: “It's up to the president to decide if he is going to run. We're all encouraging him to make that decision because time is running short.”

Nancy Pelosi, he had made that decision. He'd just come out and told us, “I'm in. I'm running. Case closed.” Your comments reopened the whole kettle of worms. Why did you do it?

Pelosi: Well, let me just say that I have the highest regard for Joe Biden. He is one of the great, most consequential presidents of our time and certainly in American history.

Kelly: And a personal friend.

Pelosi: Well, I love him. I've loved him for over 40 years, he and his family. And his legacy is very important for our country. And his legacy is one we share, because having the majority for part of the time of his presidency. So it wasn't a question of his deciding. It was a question of deciding what kind of campaign would go forward. One of the reasons I ran for Congress this time was to make sure we won the House back and to make sure that Donald Trump never set foot in the White House again.

Kelly: But let me circle you back to this moment that I'm pushing you on. Why go on Morning Joe, which he's known to watch, and reopen that door?

Pelosi: Well, I went on Morning Joe that day — that's a question they asked, but it wasn't why I was there. I was there because it was the NATO summit.

Kelly: But you knew they would ask.

Pelosi: I didn’t know if there’d be time. You know, you never know if there's going to be enough time. We were there to talk about what Russia was doing in Ukraine. My concern was not about whether he would run or not, but whether they would have the campaign that was necessary and we wanted more visibility of him and the rest. It was not a question at that time of whether he would run or not. It was a question of whether they would have the campaign that was necessary to win. Because I think that the biggest danger to our country is that what's-his-name would be re-elected president of the United States. That was my mission.

Kelly: “What's-his-name” being Donald Trump. Let me ask this question in a slightly different way. You never called on Joe Biden to drop out, I know. I have talked to no one in this town, in Washington, who doesn't believe your fingerprints were on that decision and that you were the only one with the clout to pull it off. Are those people wrong?

Pelosi: It is wrong. I'll tell you what I did not do. I did not call one person. I read in the press that I was burning up the phone lines. I didn’t call one person, people called me. Some of them I received their calls. Some of them I didn't — didn’t even have time to. I never said put [Biden's longtime aide] Michael Donilon on the phone. Never.

Kelly: Have you spoken with President Biden since his decision to pull out?

Pelosi: No. No. Well, not since his public decision. That’s a week and a half ago. No, I haven't.