Seattle Mayor responds to protests

Over the weekend, thousands gathered in Seattle and cities throughout the state, to protest the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis and to condemn police treatment of Black people.

This is an edited transcript of Bill Radke's conversation with Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan on Monday, June 1, 2020.

These protests started out peaceful. Were they mishandled by the Seattle Police Department?

I think that there's really what I would call a tale of two cities. We watched on Saturday, we had thousands of people gather at Westlake Park to protest in an organized protest that was very forceful. They expressed their anger, their grief, their call to action for changes, but there was no criminal activity. They were able to gather, to march. And then just literally blocks away at almost the same time, a very different crowd came, with I think, very different intentions. They had their backpacks full of frozen water bottles and lead pipes and Molotov cocktails, and their seemingly whole purpose was number one, to try to create conflict with police, but then went on a rampage of significant property damage, probably in the millions of dollars -- setting vehicles on fire, endangering life, and property.

And talking over the last few days to many members of the African American community, including the leaders of the protest, you know, they felt that that did not reflect their message or their purpose. And they believe, and I agree, that it is wrong that the death of George Floyd should be recognized and there should be a deep deep conversation in our city and across the nation on how we finally make true our promise of justice. His death echoes through so many generations of broken promises and lives taken. And to have that marred by people who just wanted to use it for violence and property destruction and theft of property, was wrong.

I've heard you say that the most violent protesters and the protesters who looted and committed property damage were generally, I've heard outside agitators?

No, people have used that phrase, not me. I said that number one, it is clear their motives and intentions were very different. It is based on our observation and we don't have all the data yet, but I watched every hour trying to get an assessment from the police and others as I was at the Emergency Operations Center. By and large, the criminal activity I witnessed was by young white males.

And I think one of the heartbreaking things for me yesterday when I was touring Chinatown international District, which was also hit hard Friday night, by the vandals, was a plea from some of the younger people that the elders in their community saw these events unfold and they did not understand why the Black community would target their stores. And they wanted me to make it very clear and see if we could get it translated in Chinese for the elders to make it clear that that was not the case. And we are going to do that. We'll have more information.

But I think you've seen, you know, a number of African American leaders here locally and across the country, denounce those activities, including George Floyd's brother, who believe it dishonored him, his memory, and more important than that, the power that can come finally across our nation to change our systems. So that we, from slavery on, the systemic racism that has insidiously infiltrated every democratic system we have, to face it honestly, and actually dismantle it and start the change.

So you're not saying that these protesters who got violent and damaged property were from outside of the city of Seattle?

I don't know yet where they're from. And truly, you know, people can come to our city and protest from other places. We're a city that attracts everyone for a range of reasons. That's not the issue. When we had the Women's March, we had 200,000 people marching through Seattle, from all over the country, all over the state, all over the region. I don't care where they're from, what I care is how they act.

As you said, these started out as peaceful demonstrations. Does Seattle police always bring tear gas and stun grenades to peaceful protests? Do you have any regrets about that?

When we prepare for this type of crowd control, and you see what had happened in multiple cities for two nights before our Saturday events, you have to be prepared for rioters. And I think it's very important to distinguish between those who were there to protest and those who were there to cause property damage. And that is just a truth. And the facts played out before everybody's eyes on the difference between those two things. And the police have to be unfortunately prepared to respond to and disperse those who are going to be conducting themselves in an illegal manner.

A friend of mine, who I'm inclined to trust, said that a tear gas canister went off maybe 50 feet from her and from her vantage point, she didn't see any reason for it, anything that triggered it, and I have heard that over and over again from many of the marchers. Have you not heard credible reports that officers overreacted?

I've heard some of those reports. And we will take every single one of those reports and we will review all the evidence both from the witnesses themselves, from the people who may have been near those events, from body cams, from videos from cell phones, and if there's a officer that acted inappropriately, it will be reviewed and they will be held accountable.

But I also clearly witnessed that many people who were in one stage of a march or event, didn't know what was going on in front of them in the block, or behind them. And while they may have been acting peacefully, and I saw it repeatedly, people in front or behind them, were hurling frozen water bottles and rocks and incendiary devices at the police officers who gave lawful orders to try to get people to move back and stop that activity. So until we know which is which, and obviously the Office of [Police] Accountability, their number one job is to take these complaints, to investigate them fairly. And to then make a recommendation as to whether they are sustained complaints and whether a police officer should be disciplined because of it. And OPA has very publicly stated they've received a number of complaints. The Police Department will fully cooperate. Because look, as Chief Best has said and I have said is we have to have a police department that is accountable to the residents and businesses of Seattle. They fought hard to gain trust, but you lose trust in an instant with one officer's actions.

What you're seeing across America happened because of four police officers in Minneapolis. But it wasn't just those four police officers that resonated in the experience and the bones and the collective history of people who have felt for generations, that same type of abuse. And so we know how hard fought it is to get that trust. And one of the ways you get it and keep it, is to make sure that when police officers do something that is not in accordance with with their rules, they're held accountable.

Last week, I asked you whether you would have done the same thing as the mayor of Minneapolis -- before an investigation is finished, would you say, as he did, that that officer needs to be charged. Since then, that officer has been charged. And you said yes, I wouldn't wait for an investigation. I could see with my eyes and it was wrong and that officer should be arrested and charged. I've seen, many people have seen the video taken in Seattle, of a protester lying on the ground, on his back, with two Seattle Police officers punching him repeatedly. Is there a way to justify that use of force? Would you come out now and say, those officers ought to be charged?

I have not seen the full video and I think that I've seen a very short clip of the video. But if the full context of that are, I will. But I also believe you have an obligation to make those statements based on what you do see, and not just what people say they saw.

I have seen shorter versions of that video and I saw a longer version that King 5 News aired of that man, I would say, this is my characterization, I would say weekly, hitting an officer with a water bottle that he's holding in his hand while he's on his back. So are you saying that there's some kind of conduct that could justify police pummeling, repeatedly punching someone, two cops, having someone on his back? Is that in the handbook? Is that okay for an reason?

Each use of force is very specific under the guidelines. And I will say that having both represented people who were arrested, or force was used against them by police, and having served on the police Firearms Review Board, force used is always disquieting. And we've got to make sure that when we look at it, if it turns out that it is within policy and guidelines, we ask whether those are the right policy and guidelines. And if they are, we have to have very clear discussions with the community so they understand what was happening and why it was happening. And if what happened is, then I have no doubt that Carmen Best will hold that officer accountable, up to and including termination.

I think I hear you saying that might be justified use of force, but there's going to be an investigation.

It can be. There's been lawsuits around these same issues over the years. There was a very high profile case about four or five years ago when an officer used force that was very similar to that. And once there was a fuller use of all the videos, the judge in the case determined it was appropriate.

I didn't see what King 5 News ran, I haven't been watching very much TV. But if there's an officer who uses force inappropriately, we will investigate it and we will discipline them. But I also want to say that no one should find it surprising that if, you know, police officers have to be highly trained, highly professional, and if you look in the main, at the hours and hours and hours that the police officers were, like the protesters, standing in the cold rain, but had people inches from their face, saying they wanted to kill them, throwing rocks at them, throwing frozen water bottles, throwing rocks and then lighting stuff on fire, that it was chaotic. But we will hold our officers to the highest standards, but we will also support them when they act correctly.

You mentioned that you thought was appropriate that police be dressed in the helmets, the riot gear, so called, because of protests that we had seen leading up to this that have not been peaceful. But Seattle Police also turned off their body cameras, I think because it's Seattle policy to turn them off during a peaceful protest. So which is it? How do you explain those two different policies?

So they're not different policies. There's a unified policy and I think the chief of police released a statement on this but because of a lawsuit by the ACLU or questioning the use of surveillance on peaceful protests, the agreement was reached that body cameras would not always be activated to record every peaceful protester exercising their First Amendment rights.

We have a long history in our city of making sure there's not inappropriate police surveillance going back to our intelligence ordinance and intelligence auditor to make sure that we were not collecting information, because people were either disagreeing with the state or the old Nixon's enemy of the state. And that is, I think, a very sound thing. We do not want information collected on people simply because they're protesting. When police activity occurs, the body cameras will be activated and I'm sure there will be hundreds of hours of body cam footage coming out of this weekend that people will have to review.

Is the investigation made any more difficult because some officers covered their badge numbers with a black tape, some kind of black line?

In the internet community stuff goes viral that is viewed with great suspicion that is actually not true. So the Seattle Police Department has a number of requirements for identification of police officers. Some of these go back to when I was US Attorney and we decided to do the civil rights investigation of the Seattle Police Department. We touched upon a range of issues, not just use of force, but whether police officers were correctly identifying themselves to people, whether they were trying to hide their identity so they could get away with abusive behavior.

And the policy for Seattle Police Department, and what you see in every single one of those pictures, is the person's name is on their uniform. And it's in plain sight. The badges that people thought that there were some subterfuge are what's called a morning badge and that's like grief, mourning. It is a longstanding tradition of decades and police departments that when a person in law enforcement, either from your department or an adjoining department is killed in the line of duty, people will wear that morning badge with a black stripe to remember the fallen colleague, and they remove it after the burial. These particular officers who lost their lives in the line of duty have not yet been able to have that burial memorial service because of the COVID outbreak.

And so Chief Best herself if you notice at every press conference has the morning badge on. It is not done to hide the identity or subterfuge, because if you look at every one of those Twitter pictures where people are saying, look, they're hiding who they are, their name's right there. And there's a picture of their faces right there. We'll find who they are.

Since people can have the same last name, is that a policy you'd want to change? Even though the intent going in you're saying was not subterfuge?

You could but, if there was that issue -- surprisingly, if you've got the first initial and last name on the badge, and you know which department, which precinct they're deployed to, and what their duty is, and often if they've got the name, there's a description -- I will ask the Chief, I don't think there's ever been an incident where we haven't been able to find a police officer where there's been a complaint against them by their name.

We've been talking about conflict between police and demonstrators. Meanwhile, there are a lot of people, including a lot of business owners saying, why weren't the Seattle Police able to stop and prevent property damage and looting that went on for hours? Pending an investigation, do you have any criticism of the police department on that front?

I got that question myself from a number of business owners that I've talked to. And I think that it is obvious, as I said before, the way that things unfolded is, we were staffed in a way to police a protest of a certain size and caliber that we have experienced in Seattle. Again, you know, the Women's March we had 200,000 people come in and had staffed it at a much lower level, and it was fine. And had there been just the protests that were in Westlake Mall or that had been in front of the City Hall earlier in the day, it would have been a level of policing that was absolutely sufficient.

But what happened was you had thousands of other individuals who were coming not to protest, but to cause criminal activity. And I think it's almost as a disservice to the people who were protesting the death of Mr. Floyd and the decades of criminal justice system disparity towards African Americans. It does a disservice to their legitimate and righteous protests, to call the other actions protests. Those were just pure rioting with a purpose of causing conflict, property damage and theft, and they stole thousands and thousands of dollars of goods from downtown Seattle.

We've posted a timeline on the Seattle Police Department website, which shows the very rapid escalation of violence and degeneration of the activities away from Westlake Mall and near 5th and Pine, just call after call of what was happening during that period of time. And when you do that, then you have to resort to two things when you're police officer and you're doing crowd management: first priority is that you've got to protect people's lives. And a huge challenge and great responsibility was how to make sure you continue to protect the people who were there, the thousands of people who were protesting peacefully, both had the right to continue their protest and their march. And you had to make sure that you could protect them and their ability to do that and then give them safe passage out of the downtown area. At the same time, you're trying to de-escalate and control the rioting.

The first car fire was at shortly before four o'clock, just blocks away from Westlake. You had thousands of people streaming onto I-5, the wrong way in traffic. All of these events happened almost simultaneously. So Seattle Police Department did what they had to do, which is number one, protect the people and then go to protect the property. But if you have over 1000 people who are bent on coming and causing that kind of property destruction, you would need a much, much larger police force to deter it. For example, when the fire department, we had the car fires, the fire department couldn't get to extinguish those cars, which they normally would have been. We have pre-positioned equipment ready to respond. But the people who were there doing the destruction were preventing the ability for them to transit in there safely. And as soon as we'd get one fire put out and looters taken out of a store, we'd have to move to a different location. And then they'd return to the previous location.

I think it is in some ways, people both want to criticize the police department for over preparing and wearing riot gear, but then criticizing them for not responding to the riot. And I really don't think that's fair. I think that the fact that police officers did take incoming of, you know, rocks and bottles and frozen water bottles and incendiary devices, prove that they needed the gear that they were wearing. It's unfortunate. And you don't see that deployment in every type of protests we have here in Seattle or every kind of march. It's usually our bicycle cops who are geared in a very different way. So we will continue to evaluate it.

We want people to be able to exercise their First Amendment rights. It is a cherished right and it's a necessary right. And if there's ever a time in our nation for us to be reexamining the role of race in America, it is now. And we shouldn't lose that moment to change the way that institutional racism has insidiously affected every one of our institutions, whether it's access to health care, access to education, access to economic opportunity, or the likelihood of being caught up in the criminal justice system. And that's where we've got to focus our attention. That's where we have to focus our actions. And that's what I hope to be able to do.

[Sunday's] march in Seattle happened with much less violence and destruction. And I've heard some activists, including one I'll talk with in a few minutes, say that that's because police let those demonstrators march yesterday, instead of walling them off and using tear gas, stun grenades. Do you agree with that?

I think that's half true. And I think that's a perfect illustration of what you see is from where you stand. The other part of it is those protesters weren't throwing rocks and bottles and incendiary devices and screaming, kill the cops. They were exercising their rights. They were there to protest the acts of police and policing and what they believe is over policing. And the police did not need to respond to that, because that's their right. But when you have violence coming, you do have to respond. And so I would say that there is a perfect illustration that if you have protests going, and whatever the content of their speeches, it is protected. And it should and will always be protected.

But certain activities, violent activities, are not protected. And so I think what it also showed is, is that if you have people not doing the actions that precipitated the response, then you can have a very peaceful march and we've had hundreds of those in Seattle. I hope we continue to have it and the SPD I know has been reaching out to the organizers. I think it shows not only that there can be protests that can be anti-police and police can ensure they're safe, but I think the way you saw it is, they negotiated and they talked with the police, and they said, we want to go back to Westlake Mall because we think we should be able to gather there to express what we want. And the police said you've been acting peacefully and they decided that was the right thing to do. And so those people transited back there and they had said, when we're done, we will leave and they did.

And so I think that there is you know, that they are reaching out to those organizers that if they want to march again, that we make sure that as a city, we can make it safe for them to do so. And because I think that is a better model. It's a model that again, Mr. Floyd's brother has been urging as as many others have is, give us the space to give our great anger and deep trauma and frustration and grief and let us speak it freely.

Did Seattle Police kneel with with demonstrators on Sunday? Because I saw that in Bellevue and Spokane, Portland, other places. I didn't see it from Seattle Police, but did that happen?

I don't know the answer to that.

What can listeners expect in Seattle for the next few days? What do you know about in terms of demonstrations, in terms of police activity? Curfews? What can we expect?

I think that every day has been different. I think that you have seen across the nation and here in Seattle, that there has been a number of large and very passionate public protests that have not been violent. And then after dark there seems to be a change in the tenor and maybe a change in who's participating. And so we in the city will do, as we always do, try to ensure that people have the right to exercise the First Amendment together.

I do want to remind people that we are in the middle of the pandemic. Our numbers for Covid have increased in both Seattle and King County in the last week. I watched these groups gathering and it gives me grave concern that it could be an event that brings people together in a way that Covid could increase. But at the same time, as I think the police showed last night, we understand that this is a time of great trauma across our country that's built upon not just generations, but particularly under this Administration, just the steady drumbeat of hate. And people are tired and they're done with it.

And I think we, as residents of Seattle, have to support people's right to protest. We have to have great introspection on how we as individuals, and we as a city, can ourselves, act to address systemic racism, and how we can better our society so that we truly do deliver that promise of America to every person, which we clearly have not done. And so I think people can expect that we will -- this is going to be I think, a year of, of difficulty across our nation for a whole range of reasons.

This pandemic is not done yet. I think we will see more sickness and more death. We may see spikes in different places that come in waves. We will see people have not been able to get their businesses back and they're out of work or their business is destroyed. And so I think that we are -- this is against the backdrop of, it's never been more important for us to pull together as a society. But to do that, I think we have to also acknowledge that we have not been equitable. And going back to normal is not right because normal was not just. We have to find a way to build back better.