Seattle Mayor on payroll tax and police

Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan joins us for our weekly conversation.

This is an edited transcript of the conversation between Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan and Marcie Sillman on Thursday, July 9, 2020.

Mayor Durkan, are you planning to veto the "JumpStart" payroll tax?

I want to talk to Councilwoman [Theresa] Mosqueda to have some further conversations. I've got significant concerns about the bill as it was passed.

But as context, I think what's really important is number one, we need more revenue in the city of Seattle. There's no question about it. And I believe we need progressive revenue, that we need to have people who earn more, pay more. We need that not just in Seattle, but we need at the state level.

I have long advocated for state income tax so that the people who make the most can pay the most. And I, earlier this year, advocated for a payroll tax on businesses the very model that Councilmember Mosqueda has used for the city-only tax. I believe we need that money to solve regional problems and a regional tax was the best way forward, so that every business in the region would face the same tax.

We're in the largest economic downturn in our city's history. On almost a daily basis we learn about businesses that have closed their doors for good. We have so many workers working from home and will continue to work from home probably through the rest of this year and into next year. When coronavirus is finally vanquished, I want Seattle to be in a position that those jobs return to Seattle, that our downtown will no longer be boarded up. But I also want to make sure that our economy is as equitable as possible and that we do more to make sure that we have listened to the voices that have been on the streets.

So I want to understand, there's a few very, I think, issues that I have with the bill and the spending plan. The first is the spending plan, which has not yet been released or voted on by Council, I think should be specific so the public knows where the money is going. Part of the proposed plan they had before was to spend down our entire rainy day and emergency fund this year. We're going to need that money next year because the impacts of coronavirus will continue. If we want to deliver the services the taxpayers need, avoid huge, very draconian layoffs and the like, we need to make sure we have those funds because the payroll tax money, even if it stays as law, won't come in the door for almost two years.

So I'm concerned. I support a city income tax. Those issues have already been litigated. It would raise more revenues. I believe it would not deter the creation or return of jobs to Seattle, but I haven't had the opportunity to have those conversations with Councilmember Mosqueda.

So what I'm hearing you say, I think is that in general, you support a tax. You have some questions about this particular version. And if your questions could be allayed, then you would not veto it. Is that what you're saying?

I think I need to have more information. You know, I think that is ... not a mystery. The tax is novel. No other city in the state has done it. There's questions about whether we have the authority. There's questions about how it was structured because it gives different rates to different companies, and in fact, has a very high rate for only one company, Amazon, which leads to another legal challenge. So if there's a legal challenge that happens, it is almost guaranteed that not only will we not get the revenues, but we can't even borrow against getting the revenues.

So I have some concerns about whether the rush to pass this tax, the largest tax that a city council has ever passed in our city's history that we're aware of, without voter approval. And you don't always need to go to the voters, but if you're not going to voters, then I think you have an obligation to do a very transparent system, that there's able to get enough input on all the parts of the bill, which did not happen here.

And a lot of questions, the back of the envelope estimates that some people have devised is that our largest employer would pay between 80 and 150 million dollars a year. And that this could be the equivalent of a $4,000 head tax. So those are the questions that I think the public needs to know and I need to know is, the Council and how it got to its numbers have not been entirely transparent. So I want to make sure that I understand what money they think is coming, what the level of tax will be, and some assurances that they're not going to spend down the rainy day fund.

So another concern, I think I heard you say is that if the city goes it alone without a regional tax, implicit in that is maybe a fear that some of the earners of these high revenues would leave the city limits and thus would not have to pay the tax.

I think that there's been a lot of confusion. So the earners don't pay the tax. The companies who employ the earners do.

So right now, as we know, our larger employers, and that's almost all the tech companies, as well as our law firms, our accounting firms, any kind of white collar firms, they have most of their employees working from home. The 10s of thousands of jobs we haven't lost are those who can work. from home. Those employees sometimes are working from their houses that aren't in Seattle. Some of them have moved other jurisdictions. There's a lot of different ways they're doing that. But all these companies right now are making the decision about, when do they have their employees go back to a brick and mortar location. And where is that location.

And it's not just Seattle businesses. This is a national conversation. Three of the largest banks in New York have announced that most of their employees will not return to the Financial District of New York ever. So when we're looking at, when we finally vanquish Covid, and we can return to workplaces and gatherings like we used to, what are those employers going to do with those employees? Will they bring them back to the places in Seattle? Or will they take them to other cities, or have them stay at home. The amount of taxes they have to pay in making those decisions, particularly if it's in the neighborhood of 10s and 10s of millions of dollars could impact that.

And anyone who's driven through downtown right now know what the devastating impacts have been. We have a boarded up downtown, we have 10s of thousands of people out of work, whose families are struggling. When Covid's gone if we want to not just come back, but come back better and more equitably, we have to have a strong way to come back economically in every community in our city. And I want to have us in the best position to do that.

So I'm focusing in the coming months, my focus really is in three areas. Number one, we had 10s of thousands of people in the streets of Seattle, but millions across this country -- we have a moment in time, history is calling us to actually make changes. So I'm going to be very focused on how we do broader scale community investments to really build the equity that we need to build and dismantle the racist systems that have kept people down in every institution.

Second, Covid is on the rise again in Seattle -- the numbers are really scary. We're working hard with the governor and Dow Constantine so that we don't have to go backwards and start shutting down businesses again, because we know those businesses might not survive it and those employees won't get work. So we're really focused on how do we keep our city healthy?

And then the third is, how do we, when we finally do come out of Covid, make sure that Seattle is a city that's ready and positioned to come back and has a plan for equitable investments and economic recovery. So those three things have to be done together. And on top of that then we just have to continue running the city and deliver all the basic services that everyone in this city deserves and requires.

That's a whole subject in and of itself, how you do that without money. Can the "JumpStart" tax be enacted without your signature?

Yeah, there's three options that I have, any mayor has. You either can sign a bill, veto a bill, or let a bill become law without your signature. So those are the three paths that are available for for me on any bill.

CHOP activists outline three demands, they were: Defund the police, reallocate and redistribute funds into the community and free all the protesters who were arrested. But there are also some shorter term demands and here is what David Lewis said could happen in the short term:

"Such as the 73 officers that are currently employed by the SPD that have multiple charges against them, terminated, as an act of good faith. Show us, the city Seattle, that you also stand with the people that stand against poor police actions like negative police officers."

Are you considering any of these shorter term asks and solutions to meet some of the protester demands?

Let's go to the first three, which is defund SPD, invest in community, and free protesters. I have already committed to budget cuts at SPD and a process to see how do we reimagine policing so that we have armed traditional police respond where they need to respond, but have a public health centered response for a whole range of calls, whether it's with someone with mental health training, or domestic violence training, or knows the family.

You can't do that overnight. You have to build those systems in place. So we will be reducing the budget working with Chief Best we're looking at what we need to make sure that we do have adequate people in place to respond to the police needs of the city, while also looking at how we transfer other work.

The second on investment in communities -- I've committed to 100 million dollars in new investments in the Black community and communities of color. We have done, in the last two years, unprecedented investments in housing and jobs and free college. But we know that we need to do more and that needs to be directed by community. So those two things we're on track.

On the third, on the protesters, I've talked to both Pete Holmes and Dan Satterberg -- who are the ones who make the decisions -- to encourage them to make sure that charges aren't brought against those protesters just for the act of protesting or for resisting arrest, those types of things. Different from those who actually were looting or burning cars. So those three demands we have consistently said what we're doing to advance them.

On that one short term thing: Really important for people to know we've spent the last 10 years in Seattle building up an independent oversight body that investigates every allegation of misconduct against a police officer, OPA. I have assured them that they will have the resources they need to investigate all the complaints. We've got to let them do their job. We've got to make sure that if we set up systems, we let them succeed. So I will support OPA looking at any case where there's been an allegation of inappropriate use of force and making a determination. Once that's made, then it goes through a process for Chief Best is ultimately the person who decides the discipline. And I have confidence that Chief Best will exercise that authority appropriately.

As you and I speak, a group of people, including some members of the city council, are holding a news conference to talk about decriminalizing the city of Seattle, defunding the police, there's a number of other things. You mentioned that you were going to pull back some of the funding for the police department. But unless there's a new proposal that I haven't seen yet, you're talking about 5%. There are many people who are demanding a 50% cut, and I'm wondering if you are meeting and talking with them.

I think that's a really good juxtaposition. So people say that we proposed only a 5% cut, which would be 5% of the entire annual SPD budget. We're halfway through the year. And it's actually 10% of the remaining amount.

If city council members are serious, that they want to cut half of SPD's annual budget this year in 2020, that means zeroing out the budget for the rest of the year and ending police service in the city of Seattle for the rest of the year. And they owe it to the public: is that what they're really supporting and saying? Or are they saying 50 % of the half of the year's money that's left? Or as one council member told me recently, well, 50% of whatever is left by the time we pass it in September. So I think that there needs to be a lot more honesty and transparency about what people are actually proposing.

Second is, I think it's irresponsible to just choose a number, and use that as the tool by deciding how you're going to reimagine policing. What Chief Best and I are trying to do is actually look at the functions: what are those jobs that you actually do need a traditional police officer to respond when 911 is called? And how many of those police officers do you need and how they're going to be trained so they can respond 24/7. What are the other functions that police officers do today, like many crisis calls, where you may not need an armed response? Instead, you need someone with different training. And then how do you make sure you recruit, train, and have those people available 24/7, because if someone dials 911 if they need help, whether it is from a police officer, or from someone who has public health training to respond, or often it's both. They need them to respond at that moment in time. And so it's a staffing model that literally has never been done anywhere in the world.

Marla in Sandpoint: You've spoken about dozens of meetings you've had with organizations, Black leaders and protesters about the oversized role of the Seattle Police Department, how that is reflected in the budget. However, there's been a lack of transparency to the public as to how and when these meetings have happened. Long established community groups and coalitions such as King County Equity Now and Black Lives Matter Seattle King County indicate they have not been invited to these conversations. Can you provide insight into who you decide to meet with? Would it be possible for the whole community to have access to what is happening in these talks? We're all very interested.

I have met with Black Lives Matter Seattle King County and have talked to them on a number of occasions and hope to continue in that dialogue. I've also met with representatives from King County Equity Coalition, which has just been formed in the last month or so, in what it is now. I will tell you that I have met with a range of people and will continue, which goes back to my earlier reasons that I wish the council would have more community engagement.

We are going to be having a community engagement process that taps into people from all over the city and have ways for people to know when it's happening, be able to participate, and give their views on what they want police to be doing and what other public health responses they think are necessary, and what the budgeting approach should be.

So I think it is a very good point to make sure that we have this kind of engagement. I would say that city council has not done that either in passing the tax bill or in its discussions for SPD. I want to make sure that I have as robust an engagement over a period of months, if not in the next year, as we continue to have this dialogue on what we get right, what we get wrong and what the city expects from me as their mayor and from their government.

How do people take part in that Mayor? How do they find out how to engage with you?

There's a number of ways you can just send in requests, but we're going to be standing up and it's coming soon, it's not quite ready yet. But it's more difficult in the virtual world now because normally I get in and out of the community in the non-Covid setting many times a week for town halls and open houses and meetings. We have to do it differently now. So we're trying to structure it in a way that people can actually participate fairly and broadly, and we don't have that yet.

But I think it's such a critical component that the Chief and I hear directly from communities about what they need, what they want, their vision for policing and a public health response in the city of Seattle.

Shannon on Queen Anne: Mayor Durkan, on July 4 in reference to two people seriously injured on I-5 while peacefully protesting you tweeted and I quote, "no one should risk their life for demanding better from our city, state and country. I have offered any city resources needed." I agree that no one should have to risk their life in demanding their government take action against in justices however, when our community feels constantly ignored and paid lip service to rather than seeing and experiencing meaningful change and reform from our leaders, it is natural that we escalate how we make our asks. Both in your handling a police accountability reform in relation to the consent decree and more recently SPDs response to protests against police brutality, the community has felt ignored. The King County Coalition you say just got formed in the last month is made up of long standing community groups, that you have not meaningfully engaged with. The city of resources that you offer and that we need are for you to stop stalling and take action to engage with directly impacted communities and their demands. The longer you wait, the more violence will transpire. Will you take responsibility for your role in the violence that has happened and commit to taking immediate action to prevent further tragedy?

We have been taking immediate action and actually over the last two years and even the years before that, we have been directly engaging in many, if not most of the groups that are part of the coalition now. And last year's budget actually had more money, for example, dedicated to violence disruption groups, like Choose 180 and others so that we could get upstream and really invest in community based organizations.

We also have been very conscious about making sure that we listen to and invest in those areas where community wanted to: two years free college, jobs for youth, which have been primarily, the two years free college have gone to youth of color because the first schools we did were Franklin, Rainier, Beach, Cleveland and Garfield. And so we are very, very focused and will continue.

I will always meet with community based organizations and will continue to do so because I believe without that engagement, that we can't do the steps we need to do as a city to build a more equitable city.

Mayor Durkan, we have time for just one last quick comment from you. We are seeing as you mentioned at the top of the show that the pandemic is still here. Cases are on the rise. If that continues, will you issue an executive order more restrictive than King County's Public Health guidelines right now?

I meet with County Executive Dow Constantine, as well as the public health officials on a weekly basis, sometimes multiple times a week we talk, and the governor. We want to stay in line. And we really want to make sure that we can take the steps we need to, not to have to go backwards and shut down businesses.

That may mean putting more restrictions on other types of gatherings, so really talking to people again about no gatherings in parks. A number of other gatherings we're seeing in the streets with folks who are in and around parks or restaurants. You saw that there was a restaurant that just had action taken against it. So we're really going to focus on not going backwards and we're hoping we're not too. And if we do it, we'll hopefully do it in conjunction not just with King County, but possibly with the adjoining counties as well.

And I just want to close with your viewers, I want to thank them for calling in. I think we are at an unprecedented time in history in our city and across this country. And I talk to mayors throughout the country. There's no city in America that isn't going through similar things to what we're going through. We are in the middle of a global pandemic. We have had the most devastating economic downturn in the history of our city. And now we have a righteous uprising in our streets demanding more equity and to demand we start dismantling the systemic racism that have left communities of color, particularly the Black community behind in so many ways.

There's no one mayor that's going to get it right. I'm not going to get it right every time and I can't affect the change for every one of those things by myself or even together as a city. But we have this chance to make the best efforts and best choices we can and to make a difference and to build a city, that when we come out of Covid, we can say to ourselves during Covid, we really tried to deliver assistance and support to those who needed it most. And at the same time, build a more equitable and just system and city. So that when we come out, we don't just come back strong, we come back better and more just.

Because every city in America is going to be coming out right around the same time. And it's the actions we take today that really will define what kind of city we are tomorrow. So I will continue to listen to all voices, to make the best judgments that I can. And we're in a time when people disagree strongly about approaches. But the goals, most of us agree on. And so I'm going to focus on how we get there, and I'm happy to listen to all your listeners and others as best I can.